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Will the Tree haters on the council cut out the Elm injection program?
The budget crisis may give the tree haters on the council a chance to stop the next injection of about 1800 elm trees this year.
Some in the community may not understand what has gone on here, alot of it was not report corrrectly. also some council members basically spread misinformation to the public.
Lets be clear on one fact the program works - prior to the start of the injections the city was losing about 4% of the elm trees in one year now the lost rate is down to 1% - and by the way it would be lower if the city council had approved the injection of all the Elm trees.
Ofcourse what does 4% represent? Here again the city of Evanston spread misinformation to the public. That is what is the value of an elm tree? The accountants at the city claimed the value of the trees are about zero. But lets not kid anyone, a seventy five foot, 30 inceh diameter tree is worth money. In many other North Shore suburbs you would be fined $150 a inch to cut a tree down with out a permit on your property. Thus we could conservatively place the value of a 30 inch tree at $4,500. What does it cost to remove a large tree - I have watched city crews take out large trees they have six to eight people - sometimes working over two days. Assume $30/hour and its over $3,500 this is not assuming in the waste huging and other costs. Add another $1000. Then what is the replacement cost? The city spends about $300 dollars - going around town about 1/2 of these die in the first year. So lets double it. What to you get as a replacement? A 2 inch ten foot tree.
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I have been reading the sensational titles to these blog posts: "tree haters on the council...", "spin doctor", "we can always cut firefighters", etc. with dismay. Calm down and get serious - there is real work to be done. Not name calling and sensationalism.
The issue this year is not like other budget years where, with a combination of program cuts, staff reductions and tax increases, the budget could be balanced. The funding of the police and fire pension debt is a very, very large problem. So large in fact that you cannot cut enough programs - or raise enough taxes to make a very significant dent.
Whether you think that the fire and police departments - or other city staff members should be entitled to pensions is not the issue for the bills we ALREADY have. That is a very good discussion for the future and it is a discussion that absolutely should be had. Now though, we must focus on what can be done about a very quickly approaching deadline - February 28, 2008 when I understand that we must have a balanced budget. It is time to roll up your sleeves - and do some heavy lifting. And it will not be easy. As some other poster to this blog aptly described when business gets into a financial jam, you can: 1) cut spending, 2) raise revenue or 3) sell off assets. Those are the only choices. As mentioned, it doesn't appear that we can cut spending enough - maybe a little bit here and there. I don't think you can raise taxes enough - maybe %5 could be tolerated. What is clear to me is that we are down to the third option: we must sell off some assets. I have not heard of one other better idea from the council, the manager or anyone. As a matter of fact, I haven't even heard of any ideas at all that could really begin to approach the problem. In selling off our assets, I would begin with the Arts Center at the lake front and the Noyes Cultural Arts Center to the highest bidders. It's not pretty, but we obviously cannot afford the luxury of owning these buildings - let alone the ongoing maintenance. If these are not the right properties, we should find the ones that would likely effect the least amount of residents and be the most desirable for a developer. If that doesn't produce enough capital, sell the Ecology Center and the new Levy Center. Doesn't the City own the Montessori school building on Dempster?
Painful as all of this is, we must realize when we agreed to fund the police and fire pensions to the amount we did, we made that promise. I don't like it any better than the next guy but, we should pay what we owe. Then - once the budget is passed, let's press the council and the manager to start the clear and rationale discussion about the Cities priorities. Let's begin that discussion in March.
Where you at any of the council meeting and budget hearing a few years back when they discussed the elm trees? -by the way tonight we just had more bad news - alot of ash trees need to come down - alot more than they even said a few weeks ago - this is even why it is more important to keep the elms.
Selling assets is not going to solve a thing - on the Art Center maybe we should be charging them more than $1 rent a year!
Noyes might bring a few million as a condo - then again the market is not so good. Why would anyone want to buy the Levy Center or Ecology Center?
The sale of assets is not going to do a thing - since the assets are a one year fix at best. MIght add a few million - maybe. By the way find out why they left the maple street garage retail space vacant for seven years with no renter! My guess is we lost $500,000! On one sale of asset which I will not discuss it appeared to be nothing more than a sweet heart deal to a citizen. So I am not too impress the city would even sell off assets in the taxpayers best interest.
The issue is the vast amount of the city budget is employee cost - this is where the cost cuts have to be. The city manager and council do not have the will to make the cuts - I do not favor the city manager approach - cuts need to be done once and stopped - moral is very low when you continue to cut every year.
Your idea to start a discuss about cuts has occurred here for years on end - manager propose all types of things the council does not want to cut.
I find it interesting the city comes up with cutting the branch libraries and elminating trees. These are the same cuts they use all the time. But this year is slightly different they are proposing a reduction to the mental health board budget of 25% - yet I find it interesting the employee will still at 100%. I have my doubts they will cut the mental health board budget much.
Let me close, an alderperson thinks she can solve the renovation of the branch libraries by selling of the adjoining space to the North branch which the city owns. Good idea, not really there is not enough space in the current building for the rest rooms to even work - fixing this would cut out maybe a few hundred square feet from a very small building. This just creates a bigger mess - ofcourse at this point it maybe pointless. What is interesting we are now trying to sell the adjoining building and close the branch library does quite make sense..
By the way I have an idea which will work to keep the north branch and save money -
One thing you may not be aware of the city of Evanston loses about 1 million dollars a year if not more in legal suits. There is alot here the public is not so aware of - and is covered up - that is not discussed - it about the operations - tonight one city employee maded a interesting statement to me - that is the council works in a inverse way - they waste more time on discussion a $10,000 expense for one of their pet projects than a $10,000,000 expense. Tonight was not exception they wasted time on a three units of afford housing and how much money they should give the developers. I haved notice this for a long time -
I think citizens are starting to get a picture there are alot to screw ups - the city budget is large and taxes are quite high here - but the city has come to the end of
it is running out of options. The problem here is bigger than the pensions there have been numerous poor decisions made and they are all adding up.
I have never understood why the Elm-tree supporters don't take matters in their own hands and start a foundation and fundraising to cover these costs. Why is it dedicated volunteers can pour time and money into support of C.A.R.E, but Elm tree aficionados need tax dollars?
For somebody who doesn't want to support waste, Junad, I am amazed at your continued rhetoric on this subject. I like trees, too, but we've got big budget problems that need immediate attention. Somebody once told me, regarding budgets: "You always pay for what you need. You pay for some of what you want - but you don't always pay for everything you want." Priorities.
Michele with your approach maybe the public should collect money to fund the fire department? I know you are a big supporter of fire services! Why don't we layoff all the recent hires in the department as a cost saving? Is how the fire department is currently operating needed?
The trees are not on private property they are on public property. They belong to all the taxpayers. I do not view tree maintenance as a waste. The operation of the fire service is not different than the operation of forestry. If the elms die and are left, they will adventually fall, thus they are life safety issue also! If forestry is not triming the other trees due to death elms and now also ash trees - if branches fall off the trees they could kill someone! By the way Michele - I found it interesting forestry is not really saying much about the ash trees at the last budget hearing they are not dealing with the problem it is likely it will quickly develop into a crisis a few years down the road - since they are now afraid to ask for funding due to the budget mess here!
Lets not kid anyone - if we can are not going to maintain the trees, we can take a good look at the fire department, I would suspect we can cut some of the administrative positions. Thus the fire fighters in those positions can go back on the engines, others can be let go. The elm trees are no more a waste than taking a good look at how the fire department operates.
I was very disturbed by Junad Rizki's comments. My first question would be, "what do you have against the FireDepartment". I would hope that you will never need the FireDepartment at your house for a fire, or need an ambulance for medical treament of any kind because, If you do need 911, feel free to step outside and ask your trees for assistance would you!
Your comments, the operation of the FireDepartment is not much different than the operation of the Forestry Department is insane. The men and women of the FireDepartment risk their lives every day protecting the citizens of Evanston. Now their futures are on the line with their pensions, and your comparing them with trees. You are looking to CUT down people and save money in the wrong place. You need to look higher up in the branches for those cuts. Lets end this with. how many Trees have saved your life Mr. Rizki?
I still trust the dedicated men and the women of the Evanston Firedepartment to save my life. Trees don't care much about me or anyone for that matter.
Jodi - I have nothing against police and firefighters. My response by the way was to someone with a vested interest in the issue. ( but that aside) I compared no one to a tree!
Your statement that I am insane in comparing the fire department and forestry - You should do some research. The city of Evanston forestry workers are far more likely to get killed doing their work than a fire fighter or police officer. While they are not directly saving my life or your life they are working for the city.
Also the city workers in streets and sanitation have a higher probability to get killed. ( this is fact go take a look at OSHA stats) There are other employees in facilties who also have high risk. I also believe some of the workers at the water plant have high risk in their jobs maintaining the water you drink!
Do not get me wrong - the risk of death to the worker here is not the value of the individual or job function - the city needs all these positions to keep it going. I am not comparing a fire fighter value to a forestry workers value as you appear to want to do!
As I recall a sanatation worker was killed falling off a truck here not to long ago.
(What would happen here if the trash was not picked up for a few weeks over the summer?)
Also I saw several city workers working in a unshore trench a few years ago which management claimed was not so. They could have been buried alive!
interesting enough I believe the city hired a risk management person not so long ago - I suspect the city has lost alot of money on injuries.
I would prefer the forestry workers inject trees than cut them down it is safer for them by the way and the public also.
If you read ALL my posts you might noticed I am not in any way against paying the pension funds - it will be interesting soon pension to employees will be 40% of the general fund pay out - there will not be much left for salaries in the future.
I have nothing against the police officers - by the way if you support them you might look into why the city of Evanston paids for extra legal defense of people the public defender could support! ( if you are concerned about money for pensions) A police officer recently thanked me, since I was the only citizen speaking against the nonsensical citizen police review board - our city council members are creating. Alot of the other people at the meeting attacked me. ( in case you do not know we have a huge crime problem here!)
I think the trees are worth saving - I think there is plenty more here to cut - beyond fire fighters - my comments were directed to an individual with a vested interest.
Who thinks the people should pay with their own funds to maintain public property.
You should try to do some CORRECT research. First of all, "timber cutters" , the group you have referenced, indeed have the most dangerous job in the country are professional loggers and are not municipal forestry workers.
Firefighters, just like timber cutters, loose on average over a 100 members a year. Firefighters lost 115 members in 2007 and 11 already this year.
Evanston specifically has had several line of duty deaths including Marty Leoni who gave his life at 1928 Jackson St. to save the life of a reported trapped child.
I love the forestry guys. Hard working group who do a fantastic job for the city, but the risks are dissimilar.
Junad....stop by a firehouse, get the facts and be informed before speaking up.
". My response by the way was to someone with a vested interest in the issue. "
junad -
I find it interesting that you say that people who disagree with you have 'vested interests'.
Who doesn't?
For example, these tenants in the current Hahn building triangle, who will lose their relatively low rents when the tower is built . Do they have 'vested interests'?
Evanston condo or house owners who want to stop new housing construction, because greater supply will lower the value of their existing property? Vested interests.
The Central Street neighbors who bought property next to the movie theaters ( and a hospital, football stadium, a basketball arena, CTA line, and Metra line too one may add) - and now want to keep out the proposed condo development so their neighborhood will have less traffic and be quieter. Are they 'vested interests'? { I wonder if they are related to the people in Elk Grove and Rosemont who complain about noise from O'Hare. }
The neighbors of the former Kendall College, who successfully (for now) blocked construction of apartments ( in an area where dormitories used to be, I may add) because they declared 'zoning continuity' (whatever that means) - to be desirable. Vested interests?
A police officer who doesn't like the citizen police review board? Definitely a 'vested interest'.
The people who have lots of elm trees on their streets or property, and now want the city to pay to keep them alive for a few more years. I suppose they are altruistic?
You should turn down the volume on your attacks on the motives of others.
Z
Zach - your statement is not correct - "The people who have lots of elm trees on their streets or property, and now want the city to pay to keep them alive for a few more years. I suppose they are altruistic?" no one who ever spoke on the elm tree issue ever asked the city to inject trees on their properties!
That statement is just plain wrong. It was about elms on city property.
On Kendall College you must not understand zoing - when most of the area around a site is R1 - the neighbors appear to have a valid point -
Zach - on your statement -"A police officer who doesn't like the citizen police review board? Definitely a 'vested interest'. - I say again you do not know the issues - the citizens have had the ability to file complaints and sue ( some just did not like the current process) - if there is a real issue. The city has lost money on law suits by the way. - the criminals might start to use this to limit the police to enforce the laws. If you do not think there is a crime problem here - you need to educate yourself.
While I have heard some people state the developers are over building - I do not agree with that - Z- we might agree here - if a developer thinks he can sell it - others have no business saying he is over building - I am not saying he can build what ever he wants - regardless of zoning.
Z - by the way you generalized - I stated one individual not everyone -
The parkway trees are a natural, capital infrastructure that are on the City's parkway, Michele. Unlike all other infrastructure and capital improvements, like fire stations or streets and curbs, the Elms on the parkway actually provide something valuable. Get educated about the money we spend on capital improvements and the return that taxpayers see on that investment. The cost of removal has been demonstrated repeatedly to be more than the cost of simple maintenance. The last minute decision of the council to change course and reduce the number of trees injected caused more trees to be lost. The policy regarding the size of the tree was stupid. When a smaller tree that was not injected stood next to a larger tree that was injected at the City's expense, and the smaller tree then was infected and caused the larger tree to become diseased causing the removal of both, again, at City expense, that is equivalent to throwing good money after bad. It would be irresponsible to stop the tree injection program. Hundreds of thousands of dollars are being spent unnecessarily to remove trees that could be preserved and continue to provide heating and cooling benefits to say nothing of the benefits of not looking like Schaumburg or Naperville. Our historic Elms provide monetary benefits to our streets, avenues and boulevards and contribute to the quality of life and the character of Evanston. Priorities? How about not destroying what is left of our natural, capital infrastructure and replacing it with hideous 50 story buildings and 4 foot saplings?
Mimi Peterson
Hi Mimi,
I'm curious whether you really think that streets and other capital improvements provide nothing of value to the city.
I hear a lot of folks wishing for better-paved streets, and it takes capital spending to provide that.
Smooth streets provide pleasure in a comfortable ride for motorists and cyclists and reduce maintenance costs for vehicles.
Big trees provide pleasures and possible reduced costs as well, but I don't understand why you wish to place them above all other city spending priorities.
-- Bill
Please Bill, don’t put words in my mouth. I did not say that having paved streets is not a valuable priority. What I did say is that our only natural, capital improvements add value. It is not fiscally responsible to spend more money to remove an Elm tree when taxpayers can spend less money preserving it. I don’t think that the injection program beats out all other spending priorities, nor did I say so by the way. All will agree that we have more capital improvement needs than we have dollars available. Our capital budget even with its increases, does not meet the City’s needs for streets, alleys and buildings such as the woefully maintained Crown Center and Civic Center. However, the Council is not paying for tree injections out of the capital budget. I think our stately, historic parkway trees deserve to be cared for and maintained, as they are the only natural, capital infrastructure whose value increases every year that they are here.
Mimi
Mimi - I don't think that Bill was putting words in your mouth. Here is what you wrote :
"Unlike all other infrastructure and capital improvements, like fire stations or streets and curbs, the Elms on the parkway actually provide something valuable. "
I think that this statement is really outrageous, and Bill correctly - even mildly - called you on it. Streets do matter - I recently had to pay for some repairs to my car , which could have been avoided if we had smoother roads. Fire stations are very important to me - and modern fire stations mean faster response and more safety for the firefighters. Curbs mean more safety for pedestrians. They provide something valuable.
Trees are fine, but maybe planting other species would be a good idea instead of propping up these sick old elms. Plant some maples, and we can make syrup and have pancakes, or French Toast.
Bill there is plenty of patronage to cut here beyond the elm trees -by the way I have been to the APW meetings and the council members are clueless to what is going on. They provide very poor guidance to staff on public work matters.
Staff is force to listen to their nonsense- what the public may not realize the department heads are now leaving I suspect the more senior staff who are not at retire age are starting to look for other jobs! The exodus may increase!
So lets not kid anyone on elm trees over streets - I suspect there are public works project that are a mess - one good example is the 2 million spent to renovate a ten year old library with a children wing which was not done correctly in the first place! I recently looked at a park renovation which was another screw up - in scope it was not a cost saving but actually added cost.
By the way Bill I noticed a dead end street here was recently paved - which has little traffic on it, I have to wonder why it was a priority over some of the other streets in more need? Yes Bill I am concerned about the streets also!
I suspect one year of screw ups here would pay for the elm injection program over three years!
I don't know if injecting elms is a good idea. I am not an expert on trees, how much it will all cost to inject them, how long they would survive with injections, how much it would cost to replace them with other trees, and all the other issues. The city manager, council, and other officials should listen to experts, get proposals from companies, and evaluate the options.
I don't know what the correct solution is, but there is no need for shrill attacks on people's integrity just because they disagree about a tree policy.
I also think that Anonymous' suggestion that we plant maples and harvest the syrup has merit. We must not listen to those who disagree - the corrupt Pancake Haters - who want to deprive us of syrup! We could even sell the excess syrup, and solve the pension crisis.
Zachary - this has a very long history - large numbers of citizens spoke at the council in favor ot the injection - program. Also many researched it - This was over three years ago. Zachary everything you are stating in your post has been done. Certain council members were just against this - let me give you one example one council claimed the small diameter injection holes around the base of the trees would kill them. The forestry department when it cuts trees trims off large branches the trees still live on. He voted against the injection. These individuals looked for any excuse not to do this program.
I think many of those people are plain sick and tried of the council and its political behavior. The city manager and some council members wanted to kill this program three years ago - they did not - I explained already their behavior in my previous post.
I think you stated you have not been to a council meeting - you need to get involved in an issue here and then you might understand the politics of the council.
Junad -
It is true that I have never attended a council meeting. However, they are televised, and I do read minutes and articles about them.
The problem is, as you mention, a "large numbers of citizens spoke at the council in favor ot the injection". I have lived in Evanston to realize that if a large number of people show up at a council meeting in favor of an issue, then I should be suspicious. One problem we have here in Evanston is that there is a small group of people with a whole lot of spare time who cause most of the trouble in this town. Some of these people are panhandlers on Sherman Ave, some of them are kids who paint graffiti on buildings, and some of them are 'activists' who seem to have time to attend every public meeting.
I suspect that many of the people speaking out in favor of elm injection are the same ones speaking out against the new tower, or against development downtown, or against redevelopment of the Kendall property, or against building condos on Central Street where the noisy theaters used to be, etc.
While civic activism is generally good, we cannot let a small but vocal group hijack every issue . That is why we have a council, and a professional city manager. I think that they are competent - I don't agree with everything they do, but I am not going to pretend to be the expert on everything from trees to fire codes.
It is also true, as has been indirectly pointed out here, that these noisy meeting attendees have no responsibility for their actions. So while it is easy to demand that the elms be preserved, and that buildings be kept to under 20 feet downtown, and that the Kendall lot be turned into a national park , and that some decrepit house on Central St. be turned into a museum - once you are faced with a budget and responsibilities things change. More money for elms will mean less money for streets, or higher taxes, or something.
Everything is not as simple as you want to make it. I remember almost 30 years ago, Ronald Reagan said that he could come in and balance the federal budget, cut taxes, and increase defense spending just by getting rid of waste, without cutting popular social programs. We know how that turned out ( well, most of us do..there are still some true believers out there).
Z
Zach do you really believe the council has your best interest in mind and all the so called "activist" are special interest group members?
Tonight they approved the Central street plan - alot of people where involved in it for quite awhile - tonight they spoke in favor of the final document.
I personal was not that involved since I knew this large group would represent the best interest of the neighbors. Development will not stop on central street - by the way they did not keep the "decrepit house" it came down no one wanted it - it allowed the developer to take off a story to the building by using the space.
I do not think anyone in the downtown wants to keep it all twenty foot buildings. By the way if you do not control it, there would be alot of unhappy condo owners since the newer buildings would start blocking the views of the older ones
This issues are complex - one thing I know there are alot of bright people here - many of the so called "activists" have spent alot of time on issues. Also many of these people have knowledge of the fields they speak about.
Educate yourself on the expertise of the council members and see if any of them have any knowledge in there real jobs of running any type of organization or operation.
I used a $30 per hour figure on wages - there are alot of other costs - added in such as the equipment, administrative, maintenance of the trucks etc. A more realist cost might be what a private tree company would charge for removal ofcourse there is some profit there. I would suspect the number might be higher than $2500 - maybe even as high as $4,000 on the larger trees -
But all that aside - I think no one but a complete idiot would claim these large trees are not of value to the community - they have a very large effect on the micro climate of the neighborhoods they are in - that is in the summer they are providing shade and Oxygen to the environment and filtering out the toxic waste from cars.
Here again there is economic value but it needs an analysis - the city does not care about this they are only concern about balancing the budget on the taxpayers backs - ofcourse there where a few alderpersons who were concerned about the effects of the trees one went as far as to discuss the lost of the large elm by her home and the effect it had on her cooling the house in the summer.
Bill - On your statement -"However, I am skeptical of the claim that elm tree death rates will actually be reduced from 4 percent per year to 1 percent per year over the long haul by the injections." if you go back and check the budgets this was the rate of lost. 4% or higher - this is why a few citizen realized we would soon have no elms. Also talk to the head of forestry - about the death rates - they know the program is a sucess - remember if they are cutting down trees they are not maintain all the other 25,000 trees in town.
they do not want to publicly aknowedge ithe sucess of the program too much since there are some council members who where against the injection program - staff is force to play politcs. They did claim a sucess of the program in their recreation program book.
On your other point about appreciation and dreprection of trees - first what happens if a neighborhood has 10% to 20% elms which is possible in an old area - the trees all are cut out at once. You plant 1-1/2 inch trees - they will most likely take youre entire life time from birth to death to reach the size of most of the elms.
Bill is dreprection and apreciation not really a valid issue
the city is not taxed - I think assigning a dreprection schedule to a tree I have not heard of in accounting.
Back in the 1970's when the elms were dieding in Ann Arbor - I remember the Unversity of Michigan was actually digging up large replacement trees - they had root balls the size of a car and moving them onto the main area of campus. with heavy construction equipment. I am certain this cost was not peanuts so to speak.
Bill I think you are like the city accountants they want to assign no value to the lost of the trees. Ofcourse this is the same math they do with the Civic Center don't fix it let it dreprection.
The city planted a new species Elm around the corner from me at first they would not do it- they were claiming salt would kill it. Never happen - It has been about ten years the tree is maybe twenty years old - it is one of the Oldest new species elm in town. ( these trees are resistant from dutch elm diease) It has done well - but I would guess it is about twenty feet now. It is know where near 75 feet plus.
Bill there is another point you may not be aware of the city for years has a budget line item for $500,000 to maintain the elms by doing the old way of cut out a branch once they become sick they have done this a long time. Yet my guess the staff involved does other actiivities for the city not just elm work. They actually drive around and check the trees - Bill if you go around the suburbs few if any city have the elms left. By the way go to the web site for the city of Portland - they show some of their hertiage trees - take a look at the few elms they have -they not even as good as some of the poorest example of elms we have left. There is a reason here we have these trees is that a generation ago - people in this town realize the value -of them.
One last point Bill - these old elms will be around long after both of us are gone if they are maintained. Most were planted I suspect in the 30's thus they may have another seventy five to hundred years left.
Hi Junad,
I believe your math is faulty on the tree program.
You're assigning a fixed value to a wasting asset in the old tree and ignoring the appreciating value of a new tree.
All trees eventually die and need to be replaced. Therefore the correct cost comparison is a calculation of how much less frequently trees would have to be replaced with the injection program.
If you assume the removal and replacement cost for a parkway tree averages $2,500 -- then postponing the death of 96 parkway trees postpones $240,000 in expense for the city -- which is roughly the one-year cost of the injection program.
However, I am skeptical of the claim that elm tree death rates will actually be reduced from 4 percent per year to 1 percent per year over the long haul by the injections.
As I understand it, Elm trees haven't been planted on Evanston parkways for nearly a half century -- since Dutch elm disease first became known to be a widespread problem here. If that's correct, the youngest elms in our parkways are roughly a half century old, and one would have to project an ultimate average lifespan for those trees of 150 years to get an ongoing replacement rate of just 1 percent.
That seems overly optimistic to me, given that the injections are not considered to be a complete cure for Dutch elm disease.
For more on the lifespans of urban trees, see this CBC story.
So I think it's not a sure thing that the injection program is a BAD idea from a financial standpoint, but you seem to be overstating the case in its favor.
-- Bill
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